ºÚÁÏרÇø

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week travels the world working to give young people a voice, bridging the gaps between generations. 

 

[00:00:09] Felipe Paullier

Leaving young people at the sidelines of how we find solutions is not the way. It's really bringing them [in], because on many of the things the solutions will come from them. 

 

[00:00:27] Melissa Fleming

Felipe Paullier is the first ever Assistant Secretary-General for Youth Affairs. From the ºÚÁÏרÇø, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome. 

 

[00:00:48] Felipe Paullier

Hi, Melissa. I'm happy to be with you today. 

 

[00:00:50] Melissa Fleming

You were given this position in 2023, so it's been two years ago, and you were the youngest ever senior appointment in UN history. How old were you then? 

 

[00:01:01] Felipe Paullier

I was 32, but I turned 33 in January, so... 

 

[00:01:08] Melissa Fleming

Almost 33. 

 

[00:01:10] Felipe Paullier

Almost 33 when I was appointed, yes. 

 

[00:01:11] Melissa Fleming

It's a very senior position in the UN, but it has to be a young person, right? 

 

 

[00:01:18] Felipe Paullier

Yes, I think that was a very courageous political decision by the Secretary-General, but it makes absolute sense. I feel this especially when I'm meeting young people. I think they're very positive about having someone leading this office that is more close to their age. Of course, the youth age goes from 15 to 35. 

 

[00:01:48] Melissa Fleming

They probably think you're actually kind of old. 

 

[00:01:50] Felipe Paullier

Depending on the country, I'm getting into the other group now. But I think it's important. And internally, it's also an important thing. But now that you said that, I remember my first week here when I went to get my ground badge. We have a badge to enter the UN. You know it. And the person that took my picture was, 'But you're too young for this role.' But in a kind way. But she was surprised, and that's when I was kind of, 'Okay, this is a huge responsibility.' And it's been a very challenging but also exciting journey, you know. Two years now. 

 

[00:02:34] Melissa Fleming

It is. I mean, it's... Usually at this level, you're probably in your 60s. It's so important to have this Youth Office here and so important to have this seniority because you really do have a seat at the most senior level of the table. 

 

[00:02:55] Felipe Paullier

Since I joined, two of the first people I met when I joined the UN were the two former envoys on youth issues. Because the role of Assistant Secretary-General for Youth [Affairs] and the Youth Office is something new, but we didn't start from scratch. I'm building from an amazing job done both by Jayathma and Ahmad that were the two first envoys. And I think both of them were able to build kind of a broader movement, bringing together different parts of the UN, but especially through advocacy, creating more spaces for young people to push agendas. 

 

[00:03:37] Melissa Fleming

It's important because the global population is mostly young, right? 

 

[00:03:45] Felipe Paullier

And this organization, it's about the people. That's the basics. That's how the UN Charter starts. And if we want to continue to be - because we are an organization fit to purpose and fit to future - then it's more needed than ever to have an emphasis on young people. That's the demographics of the world. And not only it's about demographics. It's also about a world that has changed, where young people are more prepared to face many of these uncertainties. And young people bring skills that older generations cannot bring. And older generations bring skills, expertise, that younger generations cannot. 

 

[00:04:36] Melissa Fleming

How did you feel when you were appointed and can you remember where you were when you got the news? 

 

 

[00:04:41] Felipe Paullier

Yes, I fully remember. So first of all, I might be a little bit crazy because I always thought, since the moment I tried, I thought it was possible. I'm not sure I was fully aware of how complex or how many people might have applied. But the moment I knew about this office being created... At that point I was working in the government of my country, which is in Latin America, a very small country. 

 

[00:05:18] Melissa Fleming

Uruguay. 

 

[00:05:17] Felipe Paullier

I was working on youth in the government. And we received the formal communication that the General Assembly has approved the establishment of a Youth Office. And I was encouraged, 'You should apply. There's going to be an application process. It's going to be an open process. They want to have someone under the age of 35. And you have a background that could match some of the requirements.' 

And I remember very clearly that day I came back to my house. I'm married. We don't have children. I married with Cecilia. She's an amazing dentist. She had a very successful career back home in Uruguay. And I mentioned I came to this crazy idea of applying to this. 'What do you think?' And she said, 'Yes, we should go. It's the moment of our lives. It's something that matches with what is your vocation. Let's go for it.' 

And step by step. There are many steps and suddenly it became more clear. It's more possible. And then when I received the news, I was actually ending my MBA programme. Because even though I'm a medical doctor, when I started to work more like in a managerial role in the government, I wanted to have some more skills on that area so that I did a management programme back home. 

And I was in the last week of that, working in the university, in the campus, and I received a call. Very weird. Like a number from New York. And I said, for some reason it's this call, the one I was waiting for. And it was the Deputy Secretary-General herself saying, 'Felipe, welcome to UN. We need you to be here in 15 days.' I was like, 'What? 15 days?' Then it was like one month and a half because then the visa was not that easy and it took some time. Then, of course, we moved here. It's been for both of us a big change. For her has been a big change, big opportunity. She's exploring like a different career path, which is creativity, fashion, sewing. New York is definitely a nice city for that. I have to learn about her because in that sense, I need more of that in my life. 

 

[00:07:40] Melissa Fleming

It sounds like also maybe you're learning something about her you didn't know. 

 

[00:07:45] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely, and she's learning constantly about her. You know, it's not an easy journey because taking the generous decision to join your couple on this change, it's not an easy one for anyone, and especially for someone like her who is so successful because if at some point, she wants to go back to dentistry, she will. But it's been a nice journey. And it's good that also us being here is a family decision, which makes it also easier for both of us. 

 

[00:08:20] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, I know it is for everybody working in the UN. It's a big challenge because if your spouse is not able to find work, it's really tough on the other because it's such an intense job. So, I'm so happy to see this. And also, maybe you're seeing something in her that is important for the work that you do because it is a young person's journey. I think a lot of young people are told you have to pursue a career in this or that, a doctor or lawyer, and maybe that isn't necessarily their passion. 

 

[00:08:57] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely. And also, I think both in her and in me, because I mentioned, I studied medicine. So, it was not that suddenly you changed and I was like one day in a hospital seeing patients and the other day I was working in the government. Of course, it was a process. 

But I remember very clearly when I was invited to join the government in Uruguay, and I told this to my parents. My dad was out of mind. He's like, 'How are you going to put your career in risk to join a political space?' And it was like, 'But Dad, this is what I want to do. This is where I believe my passion is. This where I can add more value to my community, my society. And I will always have the chance to go back to medicine, if I need it, if I want it.' 

And of course, it is a risky decision. There's always some risk in any decision. And then I also came to understand that generations think differently about also many things, and this is one of those. And I see also younger people, younger than me, that also are even more open to this more horizontal career path. 

 

 

[00:10:26] Melissa Fleming

I wonder, was there something growing up that made you aware of the importance of young people being able to participate in global affairs and national affairs or something that shaped the way you're thinking? 

 

[00:10:47] Felipe Paullier

I think somehow, it's connected to a personal journey. I remember very clearly when I really saw that through participation things can change. I studied in a public university in my home country, which has a very active students¡¯ movement. And I remember there was a current discussion happening. And like the stronger voices were not really representing my voice. And I started to identify that they were actually not representing the many voices of many students. And we started to say, 'Okay, but if we don't do nothing, nothing is going to change about this.' And we organized ourselves and we say, 'Okay, if those voices are not reflecting our views, why don't we create our own space?' And that was a long journey, like a few years. 

 

[00:11:48] Melissa Fleming

What were the issues that you were passionate about then? 

 

[00:11:53] Felipe Paullier

There was some external discussions happening and the discussions were about like investment in public health. And I think that was what brought everyone together. But then there were some internal decisions about how the university needs to work. But that was kind of for me if we don't organize ourselves, if we don t express ourselves, then things will remain this way. Because I've heard this from the Secretary-General, power, in essence, is not to be given. 

 

[00:12:27] Melissa Fleming

It's to be taken. 

 

[00:12:28] Felipe Paullier

It's to be taken. It's to be contested. And we did that. So that was the beginning of it. And then I started to say, 'Okay, I want to go beyond the university and why don't to get involved into like more a political space.' And I got into it. And then when I was working in the government, I had these big frustrations also. Because let's don't romanticize everything. Even here, I'm sure it happens to you. Not everything is perfect. Things not always get the way you want to get. 

 

[00:13:12] Melissa Fleming

There's a lot of bureaucracy. 

 

 

[00:13:12] Felipe Paullier

And I remember during a few months that I was very disappointed with many things. I had the chance to participate. And a friend of mine called me and he told me, 'I've heard of this programme. It's like a leadership programme promoted by Pope Francis.' 'And it's very different,' he said. 'It's not like lectures. It is more sharing with other young leaders from the world about your leadership journey and how we can reimagine politics.' That was the whole idea. It was named after "Fratelli Tutti," which is one of the encyclicals of Pope Francis. And I said, 'Okay. Let's go for it.' I applied. And then it was 50 young leaders from every region of the world, different religions, different backgrounds, different languages. 

 

[00:14:05] Melissa Fleming

Well, so you didn't have to be Catholic to apply? 

 

[00:14:07] Felipe Paullier

No, no, no. Absolutely. It was Muslims, Jews, atheists. It was a big diverse group because Pope Francis was very intentional also about intercultural, interfaith dialogue. And the main instance was this idea of reimagining politics and thinking about the positive of politics, politics about bringing people together. Because that's the real essence of politics at the end, although we could be very frustrated about many things happening in relation to global politics. And then in that space, [inaudible] said, 'There's many people very different to myself, but actually we have so many things in common. And there's something generational here in a different way of thinking about politics.' And for me that programme was a game changer because, at the end, there's much more we have in common than the differences we have. 

 

[00:15:09] Melissa Fleming

Do you see a correlation to your medical degree in this kind of work? Has it helped you having been trained as a doctor? 

 

 

[00:15:20] Felipe Paullier

I think so. I've reflected about this before. I think, medical doctors, we're trained to observe. That's part of our training. We're trained also to communicate because you need to explain things. Especially when you're a pediatrician, because you need to observe a lot because sometimes different to an adult, a child won't come and say, 'This is my problem.' Which sometimes it's easier than an adult because then you start mixing things. So, observation is a very important training. 

And communication, it's also another big part. And then what we also have is a capacity of connecting things. Symptoms, signs into a diagnosis, and that's when you put the treatment. And politics is lot about that. It's a lot about observation. It's definitely a lot about communication. Not necessarily talking, maybe sometimes listening more and bringing things together. So, I believe that at least some of my background I try to think is useful to what I'm doing now. 

 

[00:16:47] Melissa Fleming

I'm sure. I mean, one of the things that you need to do is, I guess, is part of your mandate, is to ensure that young people can participate in UN arenas and UN activities. How do you go about doing that? 

 

[00:17:06] Felipe Paullier

So, I love it. Sometimes it feels like you're trying to carry a larger bag than the one you're able to do. And for me, it's also being very aware about that it's about many of us from very different parts going into some direction. And that the only way of changing those structural issues - like the one we're talking about, how young people are participating in decision making - is working with many, many stakeholders. And that's the way I look at my job. 

I remember very clearly a few months ago in a meeting with colleagues from the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. And there were a few questions, very challenging ones coming from colleagues working in one of the offices in Palestine. And it was about also the voices of young people in Palestine, in Gaza, in relation to the global spaces and what is what we're doing for that. And of course, I made the same reflection to her. Definitely it's not only about us, it's how we work together with others. 

And it starts with simple actions you can take. Like for example, having a young person from Palestine that lives in the West Bank in our youth advisory group - the one we have for the Youth Office. To, of course, the structural work with the General Assembly, the Security Council, the Economic and Social Council when it's about institutionalizing youth participation. 

 

[00:19:09] Melissa Fleming

So that young person has influence in those bodies? 

 

[00:19:15] Felipe Paullier

Somehow, yes. Of course, it might not be a direct one, but yes, it has. Because you have that possibility of building the spaces in structures that influence decision-making, and then creating through these institutional mechanisms those meetings where they can directly participate. 

This year, an historic one was that for the first time ever during the high-level week of the General Assembly, there was a meeting on youth. And we had in that same room young people coming from these communities, speaking on behalf of themselves. What we're trying to do is creating the spaces for young people in all their diversity to be here. And that's even the whole spirit of the Secretary-General's strategy on youth. Of course, it's about creating spaces, institutional spaces at the global intergovernmental bodies. 

But the main part of this is building the capacity at the country level, because that's where the majority of the young people are. And that's where they're going to make the biggest of the influence to things to change even at the global level. Because at the end, it's how we change our governments across regions. And for that to happen, we need to have the capacity and the influence in each of these countries. 

 

 

[00:20:43] Melissa Fleming

You just came back from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. What was it like there and who did you meet? What did you see? 

 

[00:20:50] Felipe Paullier

It was beautiful. Such a beautiful people really wanting to live in peace. I think that's my biggest outcome. And every young person I met during that week in DRC... I spent some days in Kinshasa and then I spent days in Lubumbashi, which is more in the southern part of the country. We couldn't go to the eastern part because of the situation and logistics. But I met young people coming from the eastern part of the country. And the most important part there was first, their hope. Even such a resilient people, and hopeful, positive, but then claiming for the most basic things for anyone to thrive, which is living in peace. 

 

[00:21:53] Melissa Fleming

That was their fundamental request.

 

[00:21:56] Felipe Paullier

Fundamental claim. 

 

[00:21:56] Melissa Fleming

Which we take for granted everywhere else. 

 

[00:22:02] Felipe Paullier

At least those that like us that we come from countries where there's not an active conflict or not an armed conflict at that scale active in the country. There are many other conflicts that our societies are facing for sure. And you asked me also what's usually... Every time I travel and when we prepare these country visits, it's really about engaging at least three groups of stakeholders. A big part is really engaging young people and understanding directly from young people what's happening in the country and trying to create these spaces where you can bring these young people to decision makers in the county. Which is sometimes one of the biggest added values that we can do as the UN and especially our office as a convener. We have that power, if I can say. 

 

[00:23:01] Melissa Fleming

So you come from New York and then you get the young people together with the elders in their own country. 

 

[00:23:07] Felipe Paullier

And sometimes when someone comes from outside, it's an opportunity to promote those spaces. So that's one part. 

 

[00:23:17] Melissa Fleming

So do you think there's a natural divide that you don't see young people in most parts of the world being invited? 

 

[00:23:27] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely. And that's what young people are claiming for everywhere. We've seen in the last two, three years, this happening in so many parts of the world, in every region. 

 

[00:23:39] Melissa Fleming

I can imagine when you're traveling and you're in a situation where there's war and conflict, high levels of youth unemployment, that they're looking to you with really high expectations for maybe you can solve their problems. How do you communicate with somebody like that who has those expectations? 

 

[00:24:02] Felipe Paullier

I think with honesty and transparency. And sometimes even making a joke like, 'I don't have a printer that prints dollars. That's not something we have in our office.' I think that's always very important also to tell, 'Yes, let's focus on the challenges, but also let's focus on what we're trying to do together.' I think it's transparency. Showing what is working, and also being very honest about what is not working and not creating false expectations. I think the worst thing is creating false expectations. This is my point of view, but I think like what people need from politics is authenticity and transparency because there's not magical solutions. 

 

[00:24:58] Melissa Fleming

And their voice to be heard, maybe to be listened to.

 

 

[00:25:01] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely, but also authenticity.

 

[00:25:05] Melissa Fleming

What do you mean by authenticity? 

 

[00:25:09] Felipe Paullier

I think sometimes we try to say what it's right to be said, and we might be losing the truth in that process. And sometimes what is important is to recognize the truth. It's not to say. And there's a limit here. And I think always it's also assuming your responsibility on all of this. 

 

[00:25:41] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you were saying, because you're 34 now, that you're pushing like the official age of being considered in the youth category now. So how do you relate to people who are younger than you? Do you feel much older? 

 

[00:26:00] Felipe Paullier

I do. I think, with respect. I think the most important part is understanding that it's about that all of us bring different skills to the table. So, I think it's with the same respect I expect someone more senior than me to hear me. I think at the end, it's about intergenerational collaboration and solidarity and trust. 

 

[00:26:28] Melissa Fleming

Well, actually, we have an initiative with my department and your office that's called Peace Circles now. And it is this intergenerational initiative that brings elders, people who have that kind of experience, with young people together in recognition that only with this inter-generational gathering can we really bring about peace. 

 

[00:26:55] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely. And also, I think the most interesting thing about these Peace Circles and this whole effort, it's really building on this idea that peace is a movement. That of course there are some institutions and some structures that we need to change for things to be different. Because clearly when we look into a world where every year the budget governments are investing in arms is growing and growing, and the amount of conflicts every year are more than the year before, there is something that is not working. 

 

[00:27:45] Melissa Fleming

And this investment in arms is reducing the investment in development and humanitarian aid. 

 

[00:27:51] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely. And it's creating a circle that it's only negative, that is only benefiting a few people that are getting a lot of money from this. 

 

[00:28:05] Melissa Fleming

There's so many more of us out there who are looking for a world that is peaceful and is more equal. 

 

[00:28:14] Felipe Paullier

And that's a movement and that's why it's so critical. 

 

 

[00:28:19] Melissa Fleming

What keeps you awake at night, when you think of young people? 

 

[00:28:26] Felipe Paullier

The current mistrust and this kind gap that is increasing between young people's needs, voices, and the way traditional institutions are continuing to do the same, I think that's what keeps me awake, if I have to say. Because when sometimes you hear... And let's put this in a simple... Like let's go into a concrete example - Gen C¡¯s movements. We've read about this. We've heard about this. I'm sure you've met some of them. 

When the response that sometimes I hear from people working in institutions is just simplifying and creating this negative narrative about what is happening. For me, the real issue is not being understood. And that's a big problem here. Because this gap, if we don't really activate ourselves and change, it's only going to continue to increase. And it's not possible for this to happen this way. Because at the end, we need those spaces where we come together. And institutions are that. Not only the UN. Every institution is about building, bringing people together. 

And when we are losing that trust, what's next? The only thing that comes next is conflict. Because when you don't have the table - and that's for me the critical issue and one of the most important challenges here - there's mistrust in institutions and institutions are not able or are not really fully open to change. 

 

[00:30:38] Melissa Fleming

I mean, what do young people need most? I mean we hear a lot about youth unemployment and that this is just one of the biggest worries and concerns, obviously of the young people themselves but of societies. How are they going to find jobs for all these young people? Is this a big concern that they voice to you? 

 

[00:31:00] Felipe Paullier

Absolutely. I mentioned a few minutes ago that we had this historic institutional meeting during the high-level week of the General Assembly focusing on youth, and top one of the issues that young people brought to the table when thinking about the future and the challenges are access to jobs and economic opportunities. This is creating a huge tension over all the current architecture. This is what is happening in many parts of the world. This is a critical topic. 

The solutions are not simple at all. I remember a few days ago I was listening [to] like a conference of a very important business person in Latin America, the founder of a very large company. They were asking something about this, especially the impact of AI on young people. He said, 'Two years ago, I was in an interview and I said that what young people need to learn were competencies on programming. And now what I'm saying is that...' 

So, also that's another complexity of this current world is uncertainty. On this one, Melissa, I have to say, more questions than real answers of what's the magic bullet, you know. But what is clearly there in all of them is leaving young people at the sidelines of how we find solutions for this is not the way. It's really bringing them [in] because on many of the things the solutions will come from them. 

 

[00:32:54] Melissa Fleming

That's it. The solutions will come from them. And so, what kind of world would you like to live in if you think of the future? 

 

[00:33:04] Felipe Paullier

I would say, two concepts. Like, a peaceful one, because there's nothing without peace. And a much more human one also. One of the key things also that emerged from this big participation process our office facilitated, was actually the challenges on wellbeing and mental health. And that's why the human part of this world is for me a critical one. 

And it needs to start by each of us. You know, it's like leaving the phone at the side when we are with others. Hearing more, connecting. Trying to connect to the simple things of, I don't know, just looking into the sky or into a river. And it's like, really I....  I was not only thinking, I talking about this with my therapist this week. It's like sometimes it's like observation, the simple things of life. But these phones are really affecting our minds. And we're losing very simple things like contemplating a river, contemplating the sky. I'm sorry, I look a bit poetic but...

 

[00:34:32] Melissa Fleming

That's not poetic. It's in fact... You know, in Japan, doctors prescribe forest bathing, which is putting away your phone and walking into the forest and spending time there just observing and absorbing the beauty of the nature around you. And they have literally done studies that have shown a huge reduction in stress and improvement in mental health. So, you're onto something, Felipe. You really are. And I mean, I wonder if you have a message. You grew up in the social media era. Do you have message to the people running those platforms when you see the effect it's having on so many young people around the world? 

 

 

[00:35:20] Felipe Paullier

First of all, I try to think positively about humanity and people, so I'm sure there's no will to harm behind any of their decisions. But I think my reflection is really also be mindful about the responsibility they have. And that I hope that decisions when defining an algorithm into some way or another are more focused on the impact, on the human impact, and not necessarily on the revenues that an algorithm might bring in terms of keeping you more hours in the screen to be able to see more products to be offered to you. I will try to be positive and thinking that there's not a negative intention and that there's a possibility also to switch things into a more positive one. 

 

[00:36:38] Melissa Fleming

Let's hope so. I guess the last question is, I mean, you've achieved so much already at age 34. What else are you hoping to achieve with the rest of your life? 

 

[00:36:57] Felipe Paullier

I want to try to not only be thinking about the next day or the next step. So, for me, achievement is really that the ones around you can have a better time when they are around you. And when I think about achievement, I think that's the most important part. At the end, of course, we need to be... It's about setting goals and going for them. But for me, the most the important achievement is that when I close this role here, that people will say... And that I'm sure that I did the best that Felipe could have done in that role. 

 

[00:37:55] Melissa Fleming

Thank you so much, Felipe. 

 

[00:37:57] Felipe Paullier

Thank you very much. 

 

[00:38:03] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit . Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.