ºÚÁÏרÇø

 

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

In serving humanity there are times when words fail you. This was my colleague Bintou Keita's reaction at a ceremony to mark the end of the Ebola epidemic in Sierra Leone in which so many died. 

 

[00:00:17] Bintou Keita

Right now, I have my statement but I can't deliver this statement because there's something else I have to do before. And in that moment what came to me was humming, so, I did it [humming]. And at that moment the tears - my own, the tears in the audience - came out. These people were grieving, were still mourning. 

 

[00:00:59] Melissa Fleming

Bintou Keita has just completed her work as the Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the Head of the Stabilization Mission there. From the ºÚÁÏרÇø, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Bintou. I've been trying to get you on Awake at Night for a couple of years. It's so great to have you here in our New York studio. 

 

[00:01:33] Bintou Keita

Thank you so much, Melissa, for having me this morning, midday. 

 

 

[00:01:38] Melissa Fleming

This midday, but it's also your last days of service. Who knows? But officially, in a few days, you're going to be leaving after how many years working for the UN? 

 

[00:01:55] Bintou Keita

About 36 years. 

 

[00:01:57] Melissa Fleming

Wow. Well, you've spent those 36 years working in some of the most challenging places tackling a whole range of issues, which we will touch on later. But first, I'd like to begin by asking about your focus on peacekeeping in the Democratic Republic of the Congo or the DRC. There has been an ongoing conflict in the east of the country between the M23 rebels and Congolese forces. Is it getting worse? 

 

[00:02:29] Bintou Keita

Is it getting worse, or is it not getting away? And I do believe it's not yet getting away because there's still a belief somehow, somewhere that there is a military solution in spite of all the peace talks in Doha, in Washington, in Addis with the African Union, and even in Lom¨¦ in Togo. My sense is really, really, really there is a need for genuine will for peace to happen. And as much as we as a mission and the ºÚÁÏרÇø we want to accompany, my sense is that the stakeholders have to be willing to do the work for peace to happen. 

 

[00:03:21] Melissa Fleming

And there's no will for that right now? 

 

[00:03:23] Bintou Keita

I think the will is fluctuating. At times you say, 'Yes. This is the time.' And at another moment you feel, 'Oh no!' We come to a point where there is something, and the hopes are high, and then it goes back again. And someone has always a reason to be frustrated. But what it is to take weapons to injure people, to kill people to make a point. I don't understand it, to be honest. 

 

[00:03:59] Melissa Fleming

Sounds senseless. 

 

[00:04:00] Bintou Keita

It is. It is. It is. It is because if you listen to the rhetoric of everyone, they all want the good and the well-being of the population, of the people. But the same population and communities - women, children, young people, elderly - they are all suffering and being pushed left, right, centre for not once, twice, three times. Like five, six times displaced. Seeing their environment no longer belonging to them. 

I always make a pause because it's how do you frame such suffering when there are people who have responsibility and accountability to make sure that this doesn't continue and stop? How do you make a stop? And then having this environment where we talk about peace, and people are still full with hate speech, with incitement to violence, in the name of a cause, which we can understand. But why such violence? 

 

[00:05:23] Melissa Fleming

There must a better way to express this. Of course, obviously, people feel... 

 

[00:05:26] Bintou Keita

The grievances are legitimate most of the time, but then why grievances have to be expressed with the destruction of other human beings? I really don't get it. And there are days I'm sitting and I'm like, 'Where humanity has gone?' And to be like almost in a place, in an environment where violence is kind of normal, where people are sending you images of people with blood, covered with blood. And you say, 'But is this normal that you are sharing this?' I come to a place where I say to people, 'Please, I don't need to see those images in order to be compassionate or to have empathy with the grievances and the frustrations that you are expressing. You don't need to share this.' 

Because it is shared once and then you see forwarded and forwarded in this era of fast-moving pieces of information or disinformation. You are like, 'Really, is this normal that we are so no longer sensitive to the fact that life is life and it is sacred and it has to be respected?' And if someone has died horribly, is it normal to show it? We can talk about it, but why do we have to show it in such a gruesome way? 

 

[00:07:04] Melissa Fleming

It seems like what you're saying is that this kind of digital age of sharing is actually contributing to perpetuating the war because it's somehow inuring people to their shock of the horrific outcomes of violence. 

 

[00:07:25] Bintou Keita

That's how I feel. I don't get it. What about the family members? What about the community where this has been happening? And you feel that because you put it on an instant thing and you can push it and then it goes viral and this is how you make your point? I don't get it. 

 

 

[00:07:50] Melissa Fleming

I want to talk about the nature of your job and what you were doing, but I know that part of it was to go and actually meet people, not to look at these images circulating online. To go meet with the populations and find out what they are going through and what they need from the UN, from peacekeepers, but ultimately from their governments. What was that like? How often did you get to go out and reach out to the public and to people, ordinary people? 

 

[00:08:19] Bintou Keita

Almost in the five years very often, except this year, where from the fall of Goma in January up to let's say June, where I was able to go to Goma, it has not been as much this year as it was before. So, I meet the government official first and there is a formality around it, which personally I have to go through. But my real sense of what is going on is when I sit down. And I'm really sitting down for hours listening to the women, listening to young people, listening to the elderly and what they have to say. And to realize every single moment that it is about them having gone through trauma, not just themselves but their parents and their grandparents. And having still to... Because they have children... And to say, 'Well, you know, what we need is peace. What we need, is safety. What we needed is security. And we need just the basics. We are not asking for luxury. We really want the basics - access to education, access to health centres, access to water, access to a proper shelter.' Because there has been so much displacement. 

And you are sitting there and you are thinking, 'What can we do more? What can we do differently?' And really every single time I was sitting and listening, having this notion that the connection that they felt listened to. And them telling me, 'Please, can you say this to Kinshasa. Can you say this to the UN in New York. Can you say this to the UN in Geneva.' And every single time, of course, I would say, 'Yes, I'll do my best. But you also have the power. You also can speak.' And usually they will tell to me, 'Oh, not sure.' 

And I do remember one time when we were disengaging from Tanganyika where we were sitting with a group of women and the elderly and young people. And at the back there were some of the security forces, army and police. And they were expressing their frustration of what my group were doing to them in terms of access, cutting access, etc. And I said to them, 'But you are the ones who are electing everyone in power. So, you have the power. There are elections coming up. So, you can make some other decision.' 

And I was sitting with some of my colleagues and they were looking at me like, 'Don't go there.' And I was like, 'I'm sorry. You have the power to put your ballot in a box. So, what can you do differently?' And then, so they were looking at me and they said, 'Well, politicians, they come to us during the campaigns and everything. And we tell them what we want. And then they disappear, and then it's impossible to reach them.' And I said, 'Okay, so did you call them?' 'Yes, we did call.' 'Did you ask to meet them in their office?' Then they will say, 'Yes.' 'And what happened?' 'Okay, they don't pick up our calls and they don't receive us. So, this is why we are telling you to tell them.' 

And I'm like, 'I'm sorry. I will do that, but you can also go and have a sit-down until they meet with you.' And like one of my colleagues kind of [said], 'You are going too far, okay.' But this is how I feel. This is what I think that they are, of course, victims, but they are not just victims. They also have power in themselves. And I do believe that, yes, at times that there are retaliations. There are so many things and threats and all of these things. But if they do it as a group, they may have more power than they think they have. 

 

[00:12:52] Melissa Fleming

It strikes me that the first thing you said about what people tell you they need when you sit down with them, the first that they say is peace. And they ask you to go deliver this message to whatever powers that be. And here also, when you have to make the case for extending the peacekeeping mission, for example, what case do you make for why peacekeeping is so valuable? 

 

[00:13:26] Bintou Keita

The case is the following. We have a mandate from the Security Council, which is about protecting civilians because the host nation national security forces are not deployed everywhere it should be deployed. And I do know from vivid experience being in the field, reading the reports, meeting the people that when it comes to time of [inaudible] where life is really threatened, the only hope of safety is people running to the places where we have our peacekeepers. 

And they don't run in one person [at a time]. They come, thousands and thousands of them. And even if you have a tiny, temporary operating base, like with 275 peacekeepers, they will come like 10,000, 20,000 30,000. And you are like, 'We like it or not, this blue flag is really meaning something to people.' Even when we fail, because at times we fail. It's a reality. We cannot protect every single person 100%. But they know that our base is where they can find shelter. 

And it has been very clear during the fall of Goma, where thousands of people ran to our base. They came to it not because they like to run to us, but because they knew that it was a matter of being alive or being dead or being killed or being injured. So, for me, it's really, when I have to do the advocacy, is to say, 'I know there's a lot of politics around peacekeeping and the modus operandi and the intergovernmental discussions and all of these things, but at the end of the day, it is about the human beings that have found safety because of the presence of the peacekeepers. It's about the human beings that still believe that the ºÚÁÏרÇø blue flag can do something for them.' Peacekeeping is one tool among other tools of the ºÚÁÏרÇø family. 

 

[00:16:17] Melissa Fleming

Can you just describe what this family looks like, for example, when thousands of people suddenly flee to one of your bases. What does the rest of the family do? I assume when you say family members, you're talking about UNHCR [the UN Refugee Agency] and World Food Programme and UNICEF [ºÚÁÏרÇø Children's Fund], where you used to work. How does it all fit together and how do you serve as a conductor among many? 

 

 

[00:16:45] Bintou Keita

So first of all, it's having a space where we discuss what can be done in the circumstances. And I just want to take the more than 2,000 military who had to disarm and run to our base where we had our [inaudible] contingent. This was a place which was meant for 700 people, and they had to receive over 1,000 people in a few hours. So just imagine the infrastructure. Overwhelmed. And you have to take care of the injured. You have to care of sick. You have to take care of the sanitary facilities, bathroom, and all of these things. You have to create all of this. 

So, you have part of the mission side dealing with this plus the contingent, but you also had our colleagues from WHO [World Health Organization] who had to come and help with our medical doctors about the outbreak of mpox. Because we had mpox. We had cholera. We had all kinds of diseases going on for quite some time. And to see that we were able to draw upon the competencies of everyone to resolve and to reduce the risk. For me, those are the moments that I like most, when we are able to display in the face of the world that we are able in time of crisis - even though there is competition over there - to really see what matters and to deliver the expertise which is required at a certain point in time. It's just beautiful. It's just beautiful. 

And I've seen it in so many other places during my time with Ebola, where I discovered the work of WFP [World Food Programme]. I knew that WFP was distributing food and all of these things. But I discovered that they had this ability for innovation, adaptation to the context of Ebola, where they came with a way to display the logistics for the tents and creating an environment where we were able to work. 

In Darfur, I saw... This was January 2016 where 21,000 people ran to a place which is called Sortony in North Darfur. And we had a 275 contingent, Ethiopian contingent there only. And there was nothing, really nothing. In a few months¡¯ time, that place became very different because we had the mission with mission support working alongside with UNICEF, with WFP, with UNHCR and so many others, including the international NGOs, organizations, non-governmental organizations. Then we were able to have water, to have school, to have everything in a place where in the middle of nowhere. That is, for me, the beauty of the ºÚÁÏרÇø family on display. 

 

[00:20:33] Melissa Fleming

It must be very frustrating for you to see these very agencies that you love and respect so much and you see are so needed in all of these environments that are so unstable, having to let go so many staff. 

 

[00:20:49] Bintou Keita

Oh, that breaks my heart. And the thing is, it happened almost overnight. No warning. 

 

[00:21:00] Melissa Fleming

It's unprecedented. I mean, there's never been such a sudden cut in funding. 

 

[00:21:01] Bintou Keita

I've never seen that before. You always have... If you want to go for efficacy and efficiency, yes, you plan. You have different processes that you go through. But this time around, it's like having a knife, and the knife is going everywhere suddenly. And you are like, 'Really? This is what we are about? Where is the...? Again, where is the humanity even in treating the people who have been serving for so many years?' And, you said I'm in my last days. I left on Sunday, 30th November, DRC. The week before, I had to sign on terminating 342 contracts. And the previous week - 36. 

 

[00:22:05] Melissa Fleming

Because of lack of funding. 

 

[00:22:06] Bintou Keita

Because of the lack of funding. 

 

[00:22:09] Melissa Fleming

And this hurts you. 

 

[00:22:10] Bintou Keita

It really hurts me. Because I was like, 'Yes, I know I have to go, but I go in the midst of this?' And then there was an entire debate with my staff. Should I even have a farewell to say goodbye? I don't feel good about saying goodbye in the midst of this. So, at the end, we did. And I'm glad we did because somehow, we managed for me to be able to open and say, 'I know it hurts. And there is nothing we could have done differently because [of] the conditions.' We are hurting, but the population out there is hurting even more. 

 

[00:23:03] Melissa Fleming

I would just like to ask you, just on this chapter in the DRC, what are you most proud of and maybe what are your most hopeful about? 

 

[00:23:14] Bintou Keita

I'm very proud of the fact that, in spite of everything, the core mandate in terms of the protection of civilians is really flying very high everywhere in the mission. Everywhere. And I'm very hopeful with the young people of DRC and the women. At times, I look at their trauma and I really feel. And at times I'm lifted up because they are still dreaming, and their dreams are really about wanting to contribute something which creates more safety and security around them, for them, and for the children that they are having. Because I have a number of them who are now fathers, mothers. And I just hope that in 10, 15 years, in one generation from now, we will have a different story line. 

 

[00:24:27] Melissa Fleming

That they'll have peace. 

 

[00:24:28] Bintou Keita

They have peace.

 

[00:24:30] Melissa Fleming

It's the foundation for everything. 

 

[00:24:31] Bintou Keita

It's the foundation for everything. 

 

 

[00:24:37] Melissa Fleming

You have... I mean, you mentioned some of the extremely challenging places you worked in. In Darfur, Chad, but Sierra Leone during the Ebola crisis must have been very dramatic. I mean, what was that like? 

 

[00:24:57] Bintou Keita

It's really, you know, when you have to tame your fear. The first days I was like, 'Bintou, what have you put yourself into?' Then my philosophy is death is part of life. So, you are here. If you start being fearful, then you will do nothing. You've been deployed to help. So, you have to take this in and say you will do your job. If in the course of doing that job you will be leaving this planet Earth, so be it. But don't hold on moving, going to the communities and everything. 

Because at that time we had dead people everywhere. We had the issues with the burials. We had issues with the cemeteries. And there I learned to respect what it meant for the NGOs working in the cemeteries for mass burials. For how to keep the memories for the families that were very far, so the time would come where they will be able to come and have their grieving and to a place which is well organized. I never thought... I have been managing a number of things, but never thought that one day I would be immersed in what it is to take care of dead people. 

And then again, this is a place where I learned a lot about being very humble in what we know and what we don't know. Because in the Ebola response, with WHO expertise and everything, we had like certainties in the beginning which were challenged over time. Like how long you as a survivor you can still transmit or not transmit. We started with three months and six months, one year then even more. And where you can transmit it. 

And the other thing is the anthropologist that came to help us in the context of the community. Because at the very beginning it was, 'Okay, dead people. You have to bury them. You have to incinerate. And that's it because this is how you're going to cut the thing.' But to think about the people who have their rituals about their dead people. How do they manage? How do the grieve? And to have the anthropologists telling us, you know, 'Scientifically, you may be right, but culturally, you are very wrong. You have to find ways where you give the communities an in and out in terms of how they grieve, how they relate to their dead people.' Because what happened when we were not doing what they told us. People were going in the night and they were taking the bodies to be able to do their rituals. So, which meant that two days later, several days later you had a peak again in... 

 

[00:28:28] Melissa Fleming

Because they were catching it from the body. 

 

[00:28:30] Bintou Keita

Exactly. So, I really learned during the Ebola response, again, the beauty of the family working all together. And I learned the humility of the knowledge that you never know until another perspective is given to you on how you can better relate and how you can be closer and put yourself in the shoes of the people. So, you cannot be condescending. You cannot be I know it all. You have to say, 'You know, this is what I know, but tell me what are the alternatives that we can put there?' 

 

[00:29:17] Melissa Fleming

So how...? Was it done in the end? How could you do a burial that would respect their culture? 

 

[00:29:23] Bintou Keita

They had the conversation with the expert. So, before we had what we called the command centre for the burial system. So, who could accompany, how many people could accompany without exposing too many people? That was agreed. What type of wake was possible? What kind of wake was not possible? All of these things, it's very far now, but I remember vividly that that was the only time we were able to move the needle in terms of the response to Ebola. We managed to come to zero in Sierra Leone. 

And when we did the ceremony with the president and the ministers and everybody, for me, it was also a learning point. Where there was a lot of protocol about celebration of the end of the Ebola epidemic, but it was so much of protocol. So, people were standing and reading their speeches and blah, blah, and blah, blah, blah. And I said, 'Oh my gosh! I don't feel good at all standing in front of all these people and reading a speech.' Which we put a lot of effort with the person and bless her heart. She understood my way of speaking, so she put a lot of [inaudible] in the way the statement was written. 

So, I come to the mic and it's impossible to start reading. And I said... And I turned to see the head of state, and I said, 'You and I, the compact is when I think something, I am able to share with you. Right now, I have my statement, but I can't deliver this statement because there's something else I have to do before.' And in that moment, what came to me was humming, so I did it [humming]. And at that moment, the tears - my own, the tears in the audience - came out. Otherwise, it was just¡­ And I have goosebumps again. It was just impossible for the people because it was put as this is a celebration. But these people were grieving, were still mourning the people that they have lost. So even in that moment of very protocol with the head of state, once I've done this, then I turned and I said, 'Now I can read the statement.' 

 

[00:32:36] Melissa Fleming

I also got chills when you just hummed. 

 

[00:32:39] Bintou Keita

Because it's really... We tend to go through the motions of every day as if we are robots. We are not robots. We are filled with emotions and different emotions. And to cut the emotions because there is a protocol, there is something. No.

 

 

[00:33:02] Melissa Fleming

Can I ask you, is that something you practice? It sounds... I mean, when you were humming, first of all, it was very beautiful. Like you have a gorgeous voice and... But it also felt like it came really from really deep inside of you. 

 

[00:33:18] Bintou Keita

I do it naturally and it depends on moments and it comes differently. If for instance, I wanted... And this I didn't do. I think at some point I will be doing it is, for the ºÚÁÏרÇø, I feel that a number of us have to put humming somehow, somewhere. We do it alone. We do it in groups. Whatever it is. Because I sense that we kind of lost our way to our heart. We believe that there is a divide between when we are working and when we are not working. And I don't believe in that. I think we are bringing who we are in the work. 

And unfortunately, the environment is kind of telling us we have to be in such way or such way. Oh, if you are the SRSG [Special Representative of the Secretary-General], you can do this. You cannot do that. You cannot... There are so many things. If you are an African, you cannot be with so much colours because blah, blah, blah. There are so many things that are trying to make you what you are not that for me I think the beauty is in the diversity. The beauty is in allowing our human nature to be there present in whatever job we do, and to recognize that each and every one has something to offer. And our uniqueness cannot be erased with instructions and guidance and whatever it is. 

 

[00:35:13] Melissa Fleming

Well, after all, I mean, we did all join the UN because we wanted to serve humanity. 

 

[00:35:20] Bintou Keita

Exactly. Exactly. 

 

[00:35:23] Melissa Fleming

And not rules and regulations. 

 

[00:35:24] Bintou Keita

Exactly. Exactly, Melissa. 

 

[00:35:29] Melissa Fleming

Of course we have to have some confines. 

 

[00:35:35] Bintou Keita

Confines. But as we are human beings, our being... At times I come to that conclusion that we think it's what we are doing. Part of it. But a lot of it is our being. And so, the Charter, the UN Charter, "We, the People", I strongly believe in that.  And the blue flag is a magnificent flag and the world needs that flag to keep going. 

 

[00:36:24] Melissa Fleming

You are from a military family. I know you actually run peacekeeping. You're from Guinea, as you told us. Your father was in the military. Did he encourage you to follow in his footsteps? 

 

 

[00:36:38] Bintou Keita

Yes, I am the eldest of 11 others and we remain six. And my father because in his culture, it was about having boys. So, he had four girls before having a boy. And he said, 'I want you to join the military.' And I said, 'No way. I can't join the military.' 'Why?' 'Okay, first of all, you don't have a family life because you are gone, literally. And I don't want to see weapons and all of these things. It's not me. I can't even see blood.' And my father said, 'Okay, so if you don't want to become a military, why don't you become a medical doctor or nurse?' I said, 'No, because same thing. It's about the needle and all these things is not for me.' 

And looking back at all of this now. My father passed away actually when I was in DRC in Kinshasa in January 1998. My mom and I, we sat and we had a conversation. And she said to me, 'You know, it's very interesting. Your father wanted you to be in the military and you said no, because you would not have the family life. But do you realize that even when you joined...?' Because I started with UNDP and before I worked for CIDA [Canadian International Development Agency] Canada. 'And you've been all over, and so what is the difference?' I said, 'Well, I'm not sure.' And then she said, 'Were you not in a peacekeeping mission when you were in Darfur, in Sudan? Were you not on a peace-building mission in Burundi?' And I said, 'Yes.' So probably he has something, but not necessarily that I be a military. But I work with the military and the police, the uniformed personnel. So, that's¡­. 

 

[00:39:12] Melissa Fleming

So, you fulfilled your dad's wishes. 

 

[00:39:14] Bintou Keita

Exactly. And in another way, my grandma from my father's side was a healer, and she said to me, 'You will be a healer too.' And I was like, 'Okay, another one where are herbs and all of these things. I don't think that this is for me.' And in hindsight, I do notice that I'm following their footsteps, but in a different way. So, I learned also now to never say no in a definite manner. Somehow, all of this is coming into place, has come into place in my life, and not planned. 

 

[00:39:57] Melissa Fleming

What is keeping you awake at night? 

 

[00:40:02] Bintou Keita

Wow, what is keeping me awake at night is cruelty. I have difficulties taking in the cruelty that I see around. Every single day, I'm like, 'Why people have to die? We all would have to die, but why it has to be with so much cruelty at mass scale?' That really pains me. And even if I pray, even if I meditate, at times my mind is just running in terms of can't we find other ways to resolve conflicts? Can't we find other ways to bring humanity into frustrations, into anger, into...? All the emotions that exist in the world, they are legitimate. They are natural. However, we need more of the Mandela, Gandhi, who truly, truly, they had their egos that has been attacked and everything at some point. But at some point, they decided that there is something greater than themselves. And they were able to move past using weapons to use as tools as part of the dialogue, the reconciliation, the forgiveness. They find ways. Why can't we find this these days? This keeps me awake at night. 

 

[00:42:15] Melissa Fleming

Today, sitting here, if you think back on your work, what moment fills you with the most pride? 

 

[00:42:24] Bintou Keita

When I'm sitting with the communities and listening to them what is their life and their life is if it was not for the ºÚÁÏרÇø and for MONUSCO [ºÚÁÏרÇø Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo]. So... Yeah, so many things. 

 

[00:42:44] Melissa Fleming

It sounds like you've taken a lot of stories, a lot of wisdom from the people you've met along on your journey and it will take you into the next chapter. I'm wondering what is your next chapter? Have you decided yet? 

 

[00:43:03] Bintou Keita

First, rest. Rest at all and then remain engaged for all the things that I have just discussed about with you, exchanged with you. Women, children, young people, because I still believe that I have my contribution to continue to make giving everything which is out there. And keep talking the way I talk. 

 

[00:43:36] Melissa Fleming

Well, when you talk, you'd inspire so many people, and when you give, you get back. 

 

[00:43:44] Bintou Keita

And embrace the part of me which is the artistic side of me with the dancing, the singing, the writing poems. And this morning I had a beautiful soul exchange discussion where the person told to me, 'You can also paintbrush.' When he said it, I was like surprised. But it makes sense that if you speak from your heart, if things are coming from your heart. This is what he told me this morning: you can make anything.  

 

[00:44:25] Melissa Fleming

So, you can paint, too? 

 

[00:44:26] Bintou Keita

Exactly. 

 

[00:44:28] Melissa Fleming

So you'll make art and you'll continue to give back. I can't wait to see what you do, Bintou. And I'm really looking forward to keeping in touch. And I want to thank you for your incredible contribution that you have made to the ºÚÁÏרÇø and to humanity. 

 

 

[00:44:47] Bintou Keita

Thank you so much, Melissa, for having me. I hope that the continuation of your journey with the podcast keeps people inspired. 

 

[00:45:03] Melissa Fleming

You inspired me. I was crying a lot of the time. 

 

[00:45:07] Bintou Keita

Oh, my gosh! 

 

[00:45:08] Melissa Fleming

Good crying. I'm moved, so moved. Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and more peaceful place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit . Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Julie James-Poplawski, Eric Justin Balgley, Benji Candelario, Jason Candler, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.